>> today on face the nation, bad numbers and hard choices, an economy stuck in lull, but who can fix it? and romney showed a steady hand on the jet ski controls, but can her husband steer the right course on the economy? this is time for america to choose whether they want more of the same. whether unemployment above eight percent month after month after month is satisfactory or not. >> the choice in this election could not be clearer and could not be bigger, the stakes could not be bigger. >> you can do it. >> i know. >> or can he? we will talk about wit republican john mccain. who found out in 2008 what it is like to run for president when the economy turns bad. we will talk politics with haley barbour, the former chairman of the republican party, and the

senate number 2 democrat dick durbin, and what is the fallout from the bombshell leak about chief justice john roberts, reversing his position to ensure that the court upheld the president's healthcare plan? will it affect the court's future deliberations? cbs news jan crawford who broke the, broke the story has a followup but dickerson and white house correspondent norah o'donnell will join us for analysis on that and more. >> schieffer: and in baseball's all-star break we will talk about america's game with historian doris kearns goodwin, and former all-star harold reynolds and espn's jayson stark. >> we love each other and root for each other until we get to the world series. and then it is every man for himself. >> he got that right. it is all ahead, because this is face the nation.

captioning sponsored by cbs from cbs news in washington, "face the nation" with bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and good morning, again, it is almost too hot to even fly a kite but some are out there last week on this broadcast, jan crawford set washington on its ear with a remarkable story and inside look how chief justice john roberts changed sides and joined liberals on the court to ensure the president's healthcare plan would be upheld, the as news leak from an institution that almost never leaks, and this morning she has new details and insights into how it all came about and what it means for future court cases, a jan. >> well, bob, this court is deep and personal and could affect this court for a long time, no one has any idea how it is going to be resolved but conservatives feel a sense of betrayal that roberts changed his mind for the

wrong reasons, he had been from the liberals from the beginning that would have been one thing but to have switched his position and relatively late in the process infuriated conservatives, of course we don't know why he switched he may have been focused solely on the law but that is not what some of his colleagues believe. >> now roberts initially sided with the four conservatives to strike down the heart of the healthcare law that individual mandates that the requirement all americans buy insurance or pay a penalty and when he changed his mind, he joined with the liberals to instead uphold the law and then tried furiously with a fair amount of arm twisting i am told to get anthony kennedy along. >> sometimes he sides with the conservatives so he would have been roberts best hope but on this issue of federal power kennedy was firm, the conservatives refused to even engage with roberts on joining his opinion to uphold the law and they sat, started writing their own opinion and wrote it to look like a majority decision my sources say because they hoped that roberts would rejoin

them to strike down that mandate and kennedy was relentless until the end trying to get roberts to come back, but roberts did not, so the conservatives decision instead became a dissent. >> now, interestingly enough, this conflict between these conservatives and within the court has been brewing fo for se time and almost trace it back to the first full term of the new roberts court. that term had several controversial cases such as abortion and liberal justices then thought roberts had signaled when he came on to the court he would be open to compromise and more moderate but in that term he sided with the conservatives and the liberals felt misled, they were furious as one said at the time he talks the talk but he won't walk the walk. conservatives were angry then at roberts too, they thought he gave liberals false hope and that just ended up pushing them further away. now that tension eased over the summer of 2007 but this conflict among the conservatives after roberts walked the walk with the

liberals this time may take much longer to resolve. of course the court does erupt into conflict occasionally, bush versus gore being a famous example in 2000 but some people believe you would have to go back nearly 70 years to see this kind of tension almost bitterness the i think you could say that now exists among the justices. >> so, jan, what does this portend for the future? is this court now going to be a liberal leaning court? >> no, no. john roberts was, is, will be, solidly conservative on most of the cases and you will see it next term when they come back at the end of the summer and sit again to take up a whole new bunch of cases several of which will be very controversial. >> schieffer: and why if he didn't base his change on the law, what was it based on? >> that's the question everyone is asking, inside that court and outside the court and some of his colleagues think that he succumbed to the pressure that it was just too great or perhaps he worried about how the court would be perceived by the public if it had a narrow decision with

the conservatives voting to strike down the president's signature achievement, but only john roberts knows the answer to that and he may not ever want to tell us. >> schieffer: all right. thank you very much, jan, an extraordinary story. senator john mccain joins us now from monaco, where he is attend ago global economic and security conference, he is also just back from afghanistan and lebanon. good morning, senator. i want to start with the news from overnight. secretary of state clinton said today that the as saddam hussein regime in syria is on the verge of collapse. here is what she said. >> the days are a numbered and the sooner there can be an end to the violence and a beginning of a political transition process, not only will fewer people die, but there is a chance to save the syrian state. >> schieffer: so, senator, i guess the first thing i would

ask you is, number one, do you agree with that and number 2, what should we be doing? >> well, first of all, i appreciate the remarks the secretary of state, i admire her greatly, but the fact is, the united states has played no leadership role, now 14,000 people have been massacred by bazaar as saddam hussein, the united states of america has been shameful and disgraceful, as saddam hussein, kofi annan just announced today, that his plan has utterly fade and what do we need to do, we need to show leadership, president of the united states should be speaking out for the people of syria, second of all we should get arms to them so that we can balance the forces, it is not a fair fight, russian arms are pouring in, iranians are on the ground, people are being tortured, raped and murdered as a matter of follow by by ba is that correct as sad we need to

establish a sanctuary .. so they can resist and prevail, i believe that some day he, bashir assad will go, my question to the president of the united states is how many more have to die before we take action to help these people with other nations and i don't mean american boots on the ground, it is shameful, the total lack of leadership that the united states has displayed for the last 14 months. >> senator, you talk about getting arms in to help the people. how do we know which rebels to help? because this is kind of a disparate group here, and my understanding is, we don't really know who some of these people are. how do we -- number one, how do we get the arms there and how do we know which of the rebels to give them to? >> first of all, some of the weapons are coming in now, and i saw that movie before, libya, we

didn't know who they were, it could be al qaeda, i heard it even in bosnia and kosovo, the fact is, that these people are not -- have not been taken over by extremists or al qaeda, but they could be if this conflict drags on for months and even years, but the fact is, that we know who to get arms to, we know that if they had a sanctuary or a safe zone that they could organize better, and there are already some arms flowing in, not thanks to the united states of america, but thanks to some other countries in the region. i am confident that if we over throw assad the people of syria will do exactly what the libyan people did yesterday and that is vote for a democratic and freely elected government. >> schieffer: you do not seem to be agreeing with secretary clinton when she said assad's

days are numbered, you sound like it may go on for a while. >> i say with great respect, how many times has secretary clinton said that in the last 14 months right now, assad is able to massacre and slaughter people and stay in power, thanks to the supply of russian arms, thanks to iranians that are on the ground, we are now, we now have people with kalishnikovs fighting against tanks, artillery and helicopter gun ships that are massacring them, so i believe that his days are numbered but those days could be very large in number, and it requires american leadership working with countries in the region. i know these people, these leaders in these other countries, they are crying out for american leadership, and by the way, when was the last time the president of the united states stood up and said, we are with these people. they are fighting for the same

things that we believe in and stand for. >> schieffer: you are also just back from afghanistan. senator, in 2009, president karzai pledged and said that cleaning up corruption would be his number one priority. as far as i know, since 2009, not one single person has been brought to trial and found guilty on corruption charges. now, you have just met with president karzai as i understand it. do you have any indication that he is getting ready to do something about this? because we are pledging more billions of dollars, us and nato, and i think it is fair to say a lot of people think this is just money down a rat hole because he doesn't seem to be changing at all. do you have any indication that he is going to get serious about this? >> i have a strong indication that president karzai has pledged to spend the next two

years, before the expiration of his presidency, in fighting corruption in his country. now, whether he will actually do that or not it also would come close, so close to him as to members of his family remains to be seen. he has pledged to do that. we must hold him to that. there are two major challenges to success in afghanistan. one is the corruption that is, that permeates the country and the other, of course, is the a a any network and the sanctuary .. that the extremists, haqani network have in pakistan with the active cooperation of the isi, the pakastani intelligence service. we have to go after that network and we have to go after them wherever they are, and we have to see progress in cleaning up a corruption and the president continues to announce withdrawals rather than strategies for victory. >> schieffer: i want to shift a little bit to the campaign now. you are a mitt romney man.

he has been getting a lot of advice from fellow republicans lately. he also has been getting a lot of criticism, especially from rupert murdoch and all of the people that work for him, the wall street journal editorial page, the weekly standard. do you think this is criticism that is coming from all parts of the republican party or is it just confined to the rupert murdoch folk? >> well, bob, as a former candidate for president, albeit it a losing one, i can't tell you how many -- how much good advice i got from people, especially when it appeared that maybe things aren't going so well. it was always welcome, but the fact is, there is one person in the arena. mitt romney has been through a very tough primary. he has not only survived it, but prevailed over a number of candidates. he has a good, strong campaign. i will leave it up to the pundits as to who should be

fired and who shouldn't but this campaign and this election is going to come down to jobs and the economy. the latest jobs numbers, obviously, incredibly the president says is a step forward. i would hate to see a step backward. >> schieffer:, you know, in campaigns as you well know appearance is often everything. a lot of democrats criticized mr. romney over the 4th of july holiday for riding around in a speedboat while those numbers were coming out. he is not planning to go to the olympics and later go to israel. do you think he is going to be criticized for that? should he be staying closer to home? you know, it is hard for me to say what a presidential nominee should or shouldn't do, and i know those decisions are thought through. i really think it is important that mitt romney go to israel, particularly since these are the most very dangerous times, as you know, the talks with iran

predictably have failed an and e are facing what could be a serious crisis between israel and iran so i strongly support that. the olympics, you know, mitt romney has a history of taking the olympics in salt lake city from total disaster and actual criminal behavior to the most successful in history, but i don't presume to tell him where he should go or where he shouldn't go. and, again, bob, these are things that are the back and forth and the pundits love to talk about, but i still say again, jobs and the economy, and also national security. >> schieffer: all right. >> and america's failure to lead. >> schieffer: all right, thank you so much, senator, for joining us, and we will be back in one minute.

and joining us now to talk some

politics, senator dick durbin, number 2 democratic in to the senate in springfield, illinois this morning and here with me at the table, former mississippi governor and chairman of the republican national committee, haley barbour, senator barbour let me speak with you, boehner was asked last week by a romney supporter can you help me love mitt romney, and he said no, no, i wasn't elected to play god, the american people probably aren't going to fall in love with mitt romney, 95 percent of the people who show up to vote are going to vote for or against barack obama. mitt romney has some friends, some relatives and some fellow more monls who are going to vote for him but that is not what this election is about. it is going to be a referendum on the president's failed economic policies. romney is a solid guy, he is going to do a great job even if you don't fall in love with him. is that enough, though, just to say let's get rid of barack obama this is it going to take more than that?

>> of course, every presidential election of the united states is a reserve the, referendum on the incumbent president if the incumbent is running and his record, in this case obama's economic policies and failure to help the economy grow, create jobs is going to be the first thing, but at the end of the day, mitt romney also has to if people something to vote for. i think that is more a matter of timing. i think right now, romney is smart to wait before he starts laying out proposal after proposal but he ultimately will. but the important thing, bob is the american people will then compare that to obama's record, and that referendum on his record will happen, john boehner is right about that. >> schieffer: do you think people don't love mitt romney? >> >> schieffer: is that a problem? >> i think a lot of people who know mitt romney really, really like him, are fond of him and think he is an enormously generous guy, he had given enormous amounts to charity,

quit a million dollars a year job to run the olympics because he is doing it for his country. there is a lot to love about mitt romney. but the election still is going to be a referendum on obama's policies and the results of those policies, which are pretty poor. >> schieffer: senator durbin, i started barbour off with a quote from a republican here is a democrat, robert wright wrote in the huffington post this week that president obama did inherit a bad my from george bush. but he says the excuse is wearing thin. it is his economy now, and most voters don't care what he inherited. and if the economy stays bad, robert wright said he is not going to be elected. is that fair? does he have a point? >> well, i tell you, it is clear the economy is the number one issue and also clear that the month that obama was sworn into office we lost 800,000 jobs. that month, last month we created 80,000 jobs in the private sector, in the last 28

months we have seen consistent private sector job growth. it is also clear that when it comes to contrasting, mitt romney has no economic plan. he wants to return us to those thrilling days of the bush yes, sir search years that brought us into this recession .. but two other problems in his campaign that really have dragged him down, he can't get lift. the second one is, the whole question of healthcare reform let's get down to the bottom line here, mitt romney is the obama care daddy he gave birth to this baby up in massachusetts and now he doesn't recognize it, and he can't pick out any strength in the hereditary chain there that look like anything he did in massachusetts. but let me tell you, bob, there is a third issue looming here and it is all about a lighthouse off nantucket called sand katie if you read the vanity fair piece and the associated precipice we understand the following. mitt romney has failed to make an economic disclosure that every president and candidate for president has made in the

last 36 years. it goes back to his father who disclosed 12 years of tax returns, he disclosed one. secondly, he is the first and only candidate for president of the united states with a swiss bank account with tax shelters, with tax avoidance schemes that involve so many foreign countries and the third is when it comes down to his swiss bank account, there is just no way to explain it. you either get a swiss bank account to conceal what you are doing or you believe the swiss franc is stronger than the american dollar. >> schieffer: you are going to be surprised when i tell you this but governor barbour is sitting here just shaking his head when he is listening to you, senator. governor. >> well, it is reminiscent of obama's campaign and super pac ads what is wrong with romney from the left is he is a bad person he doesn't care about people like you, senator durbin makes it sounds like he is dishonest, well the fact of the matter is, this is a guy who has a spectacular career and record,

enormously generous and given away millions and millions of dollars that he made not of the government's money but of money he made, but the point that senator durbin glossed over is jobs. the idea that somebody can have presided over an economy that has created a couple of millions jobs, you want to look at a real recovery, look after the last deep recession 1982 and creating 300, 400,000 jobs a month, last month more people went on social security disability than got a job. in april, three times more americans gave up looking for a job because he couldn't find one than got one. and so, yeah, they want toes to over, they want to gloss over the economy and the job .. the facts are this is is the worst recovery after any recession in memory, at least since world war ii, and the american people understand one of the big reasons is obama's policies make

it harder to create jobs. >> schieffer: well, let's see what senator durbin says about that. >> i can just tell you this. let's use a specific example let's look at the automobile industry and i don't know governor barbour wants to talk about it because that is a success story. here is president obama making a commitment to put people back to work, good paying jobs in ohio and michigan and wisconsin and illinois, good paying jobs across america. last month, of the 80,000 jobs created, 7,000 were in the automobile industry sector which is coming back strong. what was governor romney's position? step away, let them fail. that is not a policy that is going to build america. and secondly, i don't begrudge the fact that mitt romney was successful as a businessman, out shoring, off shoring and outsourcing jobs, but we also, i think, i hope the governor agrees with me believe that governor romney should be held to the same level, standard of disclosure of every presidential candidate in the last 36 years -- and give us at least the tax

returns he gave john mccain. >> schieffer: all right. haley barbour cash. >> i think it is great the automobile stray is recovering and a lot is in mississippi, a lot of jobs were created in mississippi but let's understand there are alternative ways for the automobile industry to recover without the taxpayers having to do the bailout. >> schieffer: all right. i'm sorry, the clock has struck. we will be back, i will have commentator in just a moment. th .

>> so when i left town two weeks ago, people were saying barack obama had ruined his chance for reelection because he had been talking about the economy and opined the private sector is fine. which of course it wasn't. by friday, when i got back to town, that had all been washed away by the hubbub over mitt romney declaring the mandate and the healthcare law was a tax. which his staff had previously and vociferously said was not a tax. the first thing i thought of was bill clinton's tortured explanation during the lewinsky scandal when he said it all depends on what the meaning of is,, is and i thought about how politicians in a tight spot are always in search of good euphemisms, when inflation was skyrocketing in the 70s, then president jimmy carter appoint add cornell economist named

alfred kahn to be his inflation czar, he immediately warned the possibility of a serious depression, when the white house through a tizzy about the use of the word depression he says, okay i will just call it a banana, that threw the banana roar into a tizzy and i am not making this up, kahn switched to calling the downturn a kumquat, i don't think there is much romney or obama can learn from this but kahn wrote a memo to his staff that might be helpful to all politicians. try to write, he advised, in a straightforward prose way as if you were communicating with real people. now that might just work in a campaign. back in a minute.

some stations are leaving us, most will be back with our political round table and a special discussion on baseball with doris kearns goodwin, frank deford, and harold reynolds and jayson stark of espn. stay with us.

>> schieffer:. >> and welcome back to face the nation and we have plenty more to talk about on politics and later we are going to talk about baseball, but first to this politics. jan crawford is back with us, plus nora norah o'donnell and jn dickerson, both are fresh offer obama's bus trip through ohio and pennsylvania this week, i want to start with you, jan crawford sort of a news machine last week, first she breaks all of the big stories about the supreme court and then she had the interview with mitt romney, where he reversed his position or at least his campaign's position on whether or not this mandate is a tax. let me just ask you something. is this something that is going to make a difference in the campaign or is this something everybody on sunday morning will talk around on tv? >> i think it is so hard to follow the bouncing ball here on, this what mitt romney did believe in massachusetts, what

he believes now, it is a question of what do you call this animal that he and president obama? and it is the same thing, but mitt romney wants to call it one thing now and called it another thing when he was in massachusetts but your question is a crucial one which is, this is a semantic debate that is likely to get lost, mitt romney is about for 48 hours he was on the wrong side of the issue from his own party. he has now said he is calling ate tax, he is in the right position with the romney campaign believes in, i think, at the end of the day mitt romney will get rid of this individual mandate, call it a tax, call it a kumquat, call it whatever you want me will get rid of it and barack obama will not. that is the message that this is going to matter politically that is the message -- >> schieffer: i mean, i would almost take issue. i don't think he can get rid of it. i mean he may be able to get rid of it if he can get an overwhelmingly republican senate in this election, but even if the republicans get a one vote majority, they still have got to get 60 votes before they can

rerepeal this thing. >> i don't think it is going to be as simple as some of the talk that we have heard from governor rom think but his point, as i don't know is saying, well, listen, it is just me now, standing between you, the american people and this vast government takeover of our medical system, and so the point would be that i am your best hope here because if president obama is re-elected it is katie, bar the door, everything changes, the supreme court didn't save it, save, you know, the conservative position, it is up to me, mitt romney and i will try to do it and do the best i can. i do think, though, this could have some impact, this issue of the tax in some of the other race it is house and senate races you will hear a lot in those campaigns. president obama raising taxes. >> schieffer: is that basically what mitt romney did? he kind of had to get in line with the rest of the republicans? >> that's exactly right. >> schieffer: will there is so much pressure here. >> he had to get in line with republicans, people that were unhappy. when many people thought president obama wasn't going to talk about healthcare reform, then on this bus tour he

actually brought it up again in an interview criticizing mitt romney for his, for calling it six years a penalty and now switching back and calling ate tax and the president used the word you can't just switch on a dime, well i asked the president's advisors why are you bringing up the healthcare thing? they said it is an issue of values and principles it is a sign once again mitt romney does things just for politics and say anything to get elected and that was sort of the sub context of this bus tour that we were on, was a values debate, i mean you heard the president talking about how he vacationed as a child on greyhound buses and going to howard johnsons and hojo and that was in direct contrast, a contrast to mitt romney who was in new hampshire on his speedboat and on jet skis, so i think that interesting sub text of the campaign is coming out about -- which is essentially class warfare. >> schieffer: i want to ask all of you, what about this criticism that is coming out of the wall street journal from the weekly standard, both of which

are owned, obviously by rupert murdoch. and basically the idea is that the campaign is too insular and have to make some changes. how do the romney folks, now you are out there covering romney, jan, how do they feel about that? >> they believe and they are very focused they can kind of tune out a lot of that outside criticism and they think they have a plan and people are always naysayer, have been critical of every republican campaign for the last 20 years so they are really going to stick to this plan of focusing on the economy, they believe they have a plan, they have specifics and they are going to be talking about that, so they are not swayed as much by some of that external criticism as people might think, they are bringing in a couple of people, as norah has reported to help with the messaging, you are going to see a few different people -- >> schieffer: lay out more specifics for us because you heard haley barbour say yes, it is a referendum on obama, but is he going to lay out more specifics? >> he will, and he has. i mean he said, you know, he has

given us the 59-point plan and go look at it on the web site and continue to talk about that, but he wants to again keep the focus on the president and his performance on the economy, and he told me, i mean, flat out told me if i keep talking about the economy, i am going to win. >> schieffer: john? >> well, you have to remember where it starred was out of this hiccup in the romney campaign on healthcare about 48 hours romney was out of position and ultimately he had to continue defendant's exhibit one of his own senior aides whether this is the tact. i what i heard in the romney campaign they know some things have not gone well but they are a tight-knit group and not going to change much. they are going to fix some of the communication problems and get more specific, they think it is a question of typing, you do it at the right time, but they do recognize that basically there is something more they have to give people other than just saying barack obama has done a bad job, they have to give people something as haley barbour said, you have to give them something to vote for and that's what they will start focusing on next. >> schieffer: what about the president, norah? is he going

to give us more of an agenda than he has revealed to us thus far? because he is getting some of the same criticism from democrats that governor romney is getting there republicans? >> no doubt and i think you saw the president on this bus tour take a hit, certainly because the jobs numbers came out and they are not great job numbers and he didn't introduce any new economic policies instead pushing sort of the same jobs plan he has been unable to get through the republican contrast. but these new ideas and the contrast of visions i think will come this summer, it is coming in the next month or two, largely again we have been about defining the candidates and we see about three quarters of president obama's ads have been negative ads against mitt romney pointing out his record on bain and accusing him of someone who outsources jobs and sort of the same idea on this bus tour. then is going to come this contrast in visions and i am told by campaign advisors they are just, they have just scratched the surface on mitt romney's business record and background, and that's why, they want this to be a referendum and

everybody look at mitt romney and not what has happened under president obama so that is what is going going on. >> schieffer: we have to bring this to a close because we are going to talk about baseball and we will be back in one minute with that discussion.

>> schieffer: well, it is summer, it is hot, but the good news is, it is time for the all-star baseball break.

the annual mid season battle of the best of baseball, we invieed our own all-star team to talk about it and the role that baseball has always played in american lives. at the table here historian doris kearns goodwin, who is a baseball fan first and foremost, even though he is a great historian, sports illustrated senior editor frank deford author of the book overtime, my life as a sportswriter, also with us from mlb network studios, former all-star harold reynolds, a former seattle and baltimore player, who will be covering the all-star game for mlb network and in kansas city, espn's jayson stark, who joins us from the field of tuesday's game. doris let me start with you. what is it about baseball that has given us this great staying power? we have been playing baseball in this country since the civil war, abraham lincoln -- >> my god. >> schieffer: played baseball. you wrote a book of some notice

about it. what do you think it is about this game? >> i think it has to do with the fact it gets passed down from a parent to a child so it is part of your family memories, i mean in my state i was six years old and kept they art of keeping score so i could record for him the history of that afternoon's brooklyn dodger game, and he never told me then that all of this was actually described in the sports pages the next day so i threw it out and he wouldn't do know what happened to the brooklyn dodgers so my kids love baseball and part of the same fabric, we now have season tickets to the red sox, i can sometimes sit at the field and close my eyes and imagine myself a young girl once more in the presence of jackie robinson and my kids never knew my father because he died before they were born, i told them so many stories, that sometimes i can imagine that he is sitting there instead of them, and they know him through baseball. so i think that is the real treasure at the heart of it. >> schieffer: i had a more mundane reason for been ago baseball fan. we didn't have air conditioning where i grew up down in texas and it was so hot just like it

is now, the ballpark was the coolest place in town. so we went to see the dodgers farm club team, the fort worth caps and went every night just to stay cool. and so that, you know, once you get the bug, you have got it. harold this is a great year for baseball. we have had some great surprises among the teams, and we have had some great young ball players. i mean, which are the lifeblood of this sport that we all hike. who do you like among these kids this year that we are just learning about? >> well, it really has been a great year i think the number two guy that stand out are mike trout from the angels and obviously bryce harper in your hometown in washington, these two have taken the season by storm, trout 20 years old, harper 19, and i always tell bryce harper when i see him you there justin bieber of baseball, we learned about him on the internet, home run derbies and

he has lived up to the hype so that is just a crack in the surface of how many young players we have that have just been unbelievable, this all-star game we have got 30 players that are 26 and under, so we have seen a great turn in baseball right now in the young talent. >> schieffer: you know, what interests me about bryce is that he came up at age 19 just like mickey mantle and when you go back and read about mickey's first year as a 19-year-old, i mean, there is just a remarkable am, parallels here with this kid, let's just hope he doesn't get hurt this year like mickey did during his first year and it was an injury that he lived with for all of his career. >> jason out there in condition city, it is, is it as hot out there as it is here? >> bob, how could you tell? we are 105 here yesterday, so it is beautiful. great baseball weather. >> schieffer: talk about some of that. we talk about some of the young players.

talk about the surprises that we have had this year. because we have had some real ones starting with our washington nationals here in washington. >> >> yes, no doubt about it, i mean, we have three teams, bob, you mentioned the nationals, add in the pirates, add in the orioles, not one of those teams has played a post season game in this millennium and if the playoffs started today they would all be playing, which is a very cool thing. you know, there hasn't been a post season game played in washington, d.c. since 1933, but this could be the year. >> schieffer: frank, you have seen a lot. i was very struck by something you said. you said that baseball was made for newspapers, and that is one reason that -- because, you know, you play it every day and so forth, and is that one of the reasons that it has lasted so long? >> it literally start mr. the 19th century when the urban population was growing and people were moving from the

towns, from the farms to the towns and newspapers, daily newspapers were growing up and they grew up exactly the same as baseball. daily newspaper, daily game, it was a tremendous advantage and baseball is always sold in the newspapers for that reason, of course news are struggling now, baseball will outlast newspapers. >> schieffer: baseball will outlast newspapers. it is interesting, isn't it, before television, when there were only newspapers, how famous people like babe ruth and lou gehrig became and the only pictures, they would see the occasional picture in the newsreel yet they were harmer than life even before there was television, when we got this familiarity in seeing all of these players. >> blue is no question now that athletes, not just baseball players but athletes are more famous than they ever were, ruth was a special case, but now you know someone like bryce harper

right away, and by the way he just made the all-star team. >> schieffer: yes, yes. >> and you know him as a 19-year-old, i don't think 20, 30, 4050 years ago you would have money somebody quite so quickly as you do today. >> schieffer: you know, doris, talking about the surprises this year, obviously the dodgers have been to the post season before, but they didn't have much of a year last year and here these guys have come back and they got one of the best teams in baseball. >> yes, yes although later i have become a red sox fan there is some memory there from the dodgers but we talk about we see the faces of our players more today but we knew the guys in the old days, gale hodges but in a terrible slumps entire parishes in brooklyn prayed for him, i gave him my st. christopher medal and he got out of his slump i thought i made it happened, they lived in brooklyn and saw them in the laundry, it is different, now they are in a whole other class than most people so maybe they are more famous and see the pictures but

we knew those guys and their families and knew who the they . >> schieffer: the rubber hits the road when they start voting who gets into the hall of fame and there are going to be some people connected with steroids, roger clemens, barry bonds, sammy sosa, do you think those guys are going to get in? >> i don't think so, not any time soon. you know, bob, this is really a tough question and it is a tough issue. reggie jackson said last week that he would like people like me hall of fame voters to do is keep everybody out of the hall of fame who ever used steroids or any performance enhancing drug and my question to reggie would be, how exactly are we supposed to do that? we now know that hundreds of players in that era were using something, and there is just no way to look at that ballot without trying to play the guessing game of who did what, so really the only way i think to handle it is you should either vote from no players from that era or the

best players from that era and let the hall of fame and baseball sort it out. now you you uh you folks have some better ideas i would be better to, happy to hear them. i am a confused voter. >> schieffer: harold, what do you think on that? >> the way i look at the hall of fame you do it according to generation, it is not fair to throw everybody out because not everybody was using performance enhancing drugs. i think that is the one thing that is great about the drug testing policy now, what we have seen in the last few years it doesn't ji discriminate if you e a star player or not if you are busted you are busted i think that helps i agree with jason it is going to be a difficult thing and always will be but guys who are tied to it and admitted to it or whatever they will find it very difficult to get in. but i think time will tell and as we have seen this season, the numbers are dwindling, the game has gone back to the basic fundamentals and seeing more bunting and more steals, we had 38 games this year already going to the sixth inning with a no-hitter, you know, so i think we are seeing a big difference

already in the direction that baseball is headed i think the commissioner has done a great job with the drug testing and if we continue to apply it the strictness to it the game is going to continue to clean up. >> schieffer: training, what do you think about that? because i mean i have to tell you, i still think about babe ruth hitting the most home runs and still think about hank aaron being the guy that hit the most home runs in a career, i just don't -- the other guys don't register with me. >> roger marries to me still holds the home run record and they broke the rules, they distorted the game, the guys who used performance enhancing drugs, so i think if there is any evidence whatsoever .. about someone then he should be kept out of the hall of fame. i mean it is the one punishment you can apply. you can't go back and unravel history, you can do that, the one thing you do and maybe it is only a symbolic thing is to keep them out of the hall of fame. they are going to keep pete rose out for doing something after he was through playing, then how in the world can you let guys in

who distorted the game while they were playing is beyond me. >> schieffer: doris, do you think it is important for these players to set an example? i mean, a and i absolutely do. i put my cards on the table i played baseball in high school and hurt my arm badly and finally ruined it when i got to college and if someone told me you can rub a certain cream on your arm, i don't care what the doctors would have told me about whether it is good for me i would have done it because if these guys had done it, they were the people i would look to and i just think it is extremely important for them to do that. >> and i think they lost that understanding of what examples they were. i mean, young kids growing up, they had been watching these players from the time they were five or six years old and idolize them and want to be them and they see the bad example, as the wonderful thing baseball does, has restored its popularity and more popular this summer than it has been for years, more people are going, there is a sense of going back as was just said to the

fundamentals because that era threatened to destroy the integrity of the whole game. the drug testing is tougher than the other sports and i think baseball is back but these players have to understand the responsibility, they have everything else, adulation and money and they have got g god given talent that should be must have for them. >> schieffer: do you see that as a player's responsibility, harold? >> no doubt tenant it, i think any time you have the opportunity and the platform we have been given as ball players, you have got to understand the position you are in, and no doubt i think doris failed it. the other thing, i think what happens when you start looking at the drug testing and everything else too, i believe if you get caught with drug testing, you should forfeit your contract, simple as that, i think that is the biggest thing when you start taking money away, then all of a sudden we are going to clean up the game. you will always have somebody peeking around the corner trying to get out of ahead because the financial gain is so tremendous but if you put that kind of penalty on it i think that will cut out all of the temptation to be able to do that.

but back to your point real quick before i close, yeah, i mean, we have a platform, you have kids lookin looking at youy day, not just kids, teammates, friend, everybody else and it is a huge platform and there is a big responsibility, no doubt. >> schieffer: jason, what is going to happen this the second half of this season? >> well, bob, i am going to make you happy and say that the texas rangers are going to win the world series, you know, they have lost the last two world series and never had a team that lost two straight world series and the closest parallel is doris's dodgers, the dodgers of the fifties who kept knocking on the door and finally naah 1955 they burst through it, what do you think, good plot line for you? >> i tell you i saw the game six of the world series last year and i know harold was down there because i saw him, i believe it may have been the best baseball game i have ever seen, and i am with you, i kind of thing think the rangers are going to wind up i would love to see the rangers

and the -- and get to see bryce harper at age 19 this the world series i think you are on to something there. doris. >> i am just hoping the red sox come back from the dead, so at least i have a season. it has made me feel so sad, i feel the summer is gone, i can't predict except that we are not in last place. >> schieffer: did you go to the game last night. >> yes, we won last night, and i woke up happy this morning because we won on one game and w only eight and a half games out that is not healthy. >> schieffer: as they said when roger mudd got one vote for president when he was covering a national convention, it is a base building. >> thank you, i feel better. >> schieffer: i want to thank all of you for being with us. a lot of fun, it is a great season and it really has been a break in this hot weather. we will be back in a minute with our face the nation flashback.

>> schieffer: baseball was first of our national institutions to integrate voluntarily, but it wasn't until 1974 that baseball named its

first black manager. >> frank robinson, baseball's first black manager. >> it was frank robinson and he appeared shortly after that on this broadcast. that is our face the nation flashback. >> frank, a little over two months ago you said there would never be a black manager in the major leagues and you said you were very discouraged. >> well, actually i don't think i said there would never be one, i just didn't there this would be one any time soon. every time a job would open up, i was, you know, my name would pop up in the papers i would be considered for the job, wills, people like that, larry doe by, but never ever happened. >> so that was a frustration of yours at that time. >> yes, it was, not only just for me but for black period period, you know they would tell you there is no qualified blacks around and that is, you know, that was ridiculous, as far as i was concerned. you know, you don't really know if someone can manage in the major leagues leagues or anyplace else until he is given an opportunity to try. >> robinson went on to be one of the most successful managers in baseball, the first of 14

african-americans to manage in the major leagues, including the current manager of the cincinnati reds, dusty baker and this year's manager of the american league all-star team, ron washington of the texas rangers. >> our face the nation flashback.

>> well, that is it for us for

today, thank you for being here, and i hope you will come back next week when we will have all of the latest news on politics and baseball. right here on face the nation. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> this broadcast was produced by cbs news. which is solely responsible for the selection of today's guests and topics. it originated in washington, d.c.

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